tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post7158278968178830716..comments2024-03-28T00:36:13.790-07:00Comments on Volatile and Decentralized: Does Google do "research"?Matt Welshhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/04255792550910131960noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-47657600994152934372011-03-12T12:55:07.109-08:002011-03-12T12:55:07.109-08:00Anon re: researcher vs. engineer: They are differe...Anon re: researcher vs. engineer: They are different job titles and therefore you apply to different jobs. Almost everyone working in systems, networking, and related areas at Google is a "software engineer". "Research scientist" positions tend to be people in machine learning, AI, theory, etc. I never even considered a "research scientist" role mainly because it was not that appropriate given my interests. I guess I could have applied for it but likely they would have steered me towards the software engineering role instead.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-47862170793780227932011-03-10T22:20:55.605-08:002011-03-10T22:20:55.605-08:00Re Peter's description above of the researcher...Re Peter's description above of the researcher role vs. engineer role: given that the jobs are very similar and that the difference may only be in the interaction with one's manager, how does Google decide if someone who has a research background (a new Ph.D. or a Matt Welsh) is to labelled as an engineer or a researcher?<br /><br />And Matt, given your publication record (and the fact that you were tenured at Harvard!) it would seem that either role would have been open to you. Why did you choose one and not the other?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-6073542511105820112011-02-04T19:51:57.483-08:002011-02-04T19:51:57.483-08:00I sincerely apologize if you find those comments o...I sincerely apologize if you find those comments offensive - I am sorry about that. <br /><br />I had just presented what happens in academia and why google is better research place that academic institution.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-39189945175630803162011-02-04T18:29:31.311-08:002011-02-04T18:29:31.311-08:00I deleted two anonymous comments that were offensi...I deleted two anonymous comments that were offensive. I won't tolerate mudslinging on my blog, unless I'm the one slinging mud, of course. Don't like it? Start your own blog.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-63562174008243912432011-02-04T18:28:35.479-08:002011-02-04T18:28:35.479-08:00you have deleted the TRUTH! Disappointing..you have deleted the TRUTH! Disappointing..Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-68784690858655409062011-02-03T07:03:34.692-08:002011-02-03T07:03:34.692-08:00o o my comments :-(o o my comments :-(Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-46971333626418658182011-01-31T08:37:34.756-08:002011-01-31T08:37:34.756-08:00Anon re: Management - you make some very good poin...Anon re: Management - you make some very good points. I can't comment on Google management more generally, but it's been my impression so far that management is fairly hands off - of course there is a lot of variation. Overall, Google seems like a place run by a bunch of grad students who like doing geeky things and nearly all projects are driven bottom-up by the engineers, not top-down by management. The running joke is that we lack proper "adult supervision." I'm also fortunate that my manager lets me do whatever I want - either because I'm well-established or I'm not that important is hard to tell :-)<br /><br />One of the reasons I left academia is that I want to build things, not be a manager (which is all I was doing as a professor). I could certainly be a manager here but that doesn't actually give me any more power or freedom. When I move to Seattle in March I will be heading up a new team there which will require taking on more management duties, but my plan is to hand the day to day management over to a proper "manager" once the team is built up.<br /><br />You are absolutely right that you have less freedom in industry than in academia. On the other hand, being in academia still requires a great deal of overhead (teaching, committee work, travel, etc.) and of course you can only really work on things that you can successfully get funding for and publish papers on. So it's true that in academia I was more my own boss, however, at least so far at Google I've been able to carve out a role for myself that I enjoy.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-86061033339267931942011-01-30T20:07:47.889-08:002011-01-30T20:07:47.889-08:00I think there may be a part of the Google experien...I think there may be a part of the Google experience that may be missing: interactions with management. I found a good resource for learning about the internals of a company: glassdoor.com. There, I saw feedback about how Google management can sometimes be stifling and obstructive, or even unfair. Of course, this will vary from manager to manager, and those who are happy and content are not likely to post feedback.<br /><br />Besides impressions about management (which I don't think this blogger will respond to, at least not in the negative), I'm also interested to know why this blogger did not apply for the management position. Certainly, I'm sure he is eligible for that position. And I'm thinking being a manager will give him more resources and more freedom to do what he wants. I.e. closer to an academic researcher.<br /><br />And that brings me to my last point: being in the industry in general not only causes one to lose the freedom to work on anything, it also brings one under the mercy of one's management. If the management is good, then things will be great. If the management is short-sighted, self-centered, unaware of what's happening at the ground-level, insecure, unhappy with the way you look, then you're pretty much screwed. In that sense, being in academia is a better choice.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-54286160906430456262011-01-28T09:53:20.365-08:002011-01-28T09:53:20.365-08:00"Overall conclusion from all the comments - P..."Overall conclusion from all the comments - PhD is a waste of time."<br /><br />See, if you've taken the trouble to do a Ph.D., you would have more correctly interpreted all the things being said here, and you wouldn't have jumped to that conclusion :)<br /><br /><br />It's been a while since I wrote code on the whiteboard, or opened a textbook on OS, but I'm doing it during my lunchtimes at work, at home after dinner, and on the weekends. Sure it's consuming time, but hey, if I want to beat those fresh graduates, I want to beat them on the whiteboard as well, not just on paper :) <br /><br />And in any case, it's not like I'm learning new stuff, it's been more like "Oh, I remember this now." Then I move on to the next chapter.<br /><br />In a way, I feel that Google's interview process is more fair. But I might feel differently after I had mine :pAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-10799637603673883002011-01-28T04:35:42.431-08:002011-01-28T04:35:42.431-08:00Rajeev - I might blog about this, but I'm not ...Rajeev - I might blog about this, but I'm not an expert on Google's recruiting process. A lot has been written about it elsewhere, if you look around (using your favorite search engine, perhaps).<br /><br />It is not my impression at all that Google's process is any more lengthy than those other companies. Most companies do a phone screen, if you pass that a day of interviews, then extend an offer (or not). This was my experience interviewing at Google (both in 2002 and 2010) as well as previously at Microsoft Research, HP Labs, and IBM Research. I don't see how it can be done in any less time than this, although companies differ on the length of time between interview and offer - at Google it can take a week or two. Many students of mine have interviewed at Microsoft, Facebook, Amazon, Twitter, you name it, and all report the same process.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-14697310199412414512011-01-28T04:28:31.378-08:002011-01-28T04:28:31.378-08:00Anon re: "PhD is a waste of time" - I...Anon re: "PhD is a waste of time" - I'm sorry you are getting that impression - that's not what I said. What you may be confused about is that a PhD is a waste of time *for some people*.<br /><br />Look, you only *need* a PhD if you want to be a professor at a top university (and even then there are exceptions to the rule - it's my understanding that Hank Levy, chair of the CS department at UW, never got one). Most industrial research labs expect candidates to have a PhD as well.<br /><br />At Google, you don't need a PhD to do "research" work, but having one helps in many ways - in particular, doing a PhD trained me how to think deeply about problems, how to be an "architect", how to read and synthesize results from scientific literature, how to teach and mentor, how to leverage a wide range of scientific and mathematical approaches in my work. I sometimes run into software engineers here without a PhD who are simply unaware of important results in the literature or a scientific methodology that would help them out in their job.<br /><br />I blogged about the pros and cons of a PhD before:<br />http://matt-welsh.blogspot.com/2010/09/so-you-want-to-go-to-grad-school.html<br /><br />Doing a PhD is not for everyone, but calling it "a waste of time" seems fairly naive.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-85099183299580421382011-01-27T23:42:46.572-08:002011-01-27T23:42:46.572-08:00Since a lot of comments has been posted about Goog...Since a lot of comments has been posted about Google's recruitment process, I request Matt to write on this topic in his blog next.<br /><br />I have heard a few things about Google's recruitment process like its way too lengthy and time consuming than other companies like MS, Yahoo! or Oracle. But the latter also hires bright and smart people within less time...<br />All these might be rumors.<br />So it will be great to hear from a google insider on this.Rajeev Shuklanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-62287803678503701982011-01-27T20:22:30.174-08:002011-01-27T20:22:30.174-08:00Overall conclusion from all the comments - PhD is ...Overall conclusion from all the comments - PhD is a waste of time.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-91814881389069513792011-01-27T07:59:59.413-08:002011-01-27T07:59:59.413-08:00Thanks for the quick reply!
Clearly code needs t...Thanks for the quick reply! <br /><br />Clearly code needs to be written --and doing so is an excellent way to really understand what is happening. What is not so clear however is whether everyone should have to go through the same process. This is not a new topic really and I have heard it mentioned elsewhere many times before.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-41763972422797158102011-01-27T07:22:37.411-08:002011-01-27T07:22:37.411-08:00Anon re: "tech test" - I tend to agree w...Anon re: "tech test" - I tend to agree with you, but there are two issues at work here: a cultural one and a technical one. From a technical perspective it should be obvious that a seasoned academic shouldn't have to remember how to implement a doubly-linked list in Java to contribute something important to Google. But from a cultural level, there aren't many roles here that don't require writing code - even "researchers" tend to build and maintain real systems. There's also a deep-seated egalitarian view that everyone should have to go through that kind of interview.<br /><br />One thing I am trying to work on here is avoiding a situation where Google passes over a really great talent because they are rusty on writing code on the whiteboard.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-60083967092866280592011-01-27T06:35:42.168-08:002011-01-27T06:35:42.168-08:00Speaking as an academic, for good and for bad, I s...Speaking as an academic, for good and for bad, I stopped writing code on a daily basis a long time ago. Doing research at Google for me would be extremely interesting (and a good fit with what I do). The sad truth however is that I would never pass the tech test. And to be provocative, why should I? It seems somewhat perverse that people who are optimised for research are interviewed in much the same way as a fresh undergraduate, with similar expectations of producing production-quality code.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-52457709890245111092011-01-26T06:44:50.091-08:002011-01-26T06:44:50.091-08:00Abhijit - it is a valid concern. Two things:
(1) ...Abhijit - it is a valid concern. Two things:<br /><br />(1) Google is not the only place you can work after you get a PhD. I've tried to emphasize that Google has a particular approach to "research" that differs a lot from academia and more conventional industrial research labs, like MSR. It depends on what you enjoy doing.<br /><br />(2) There's no way for me to comment on the difference between what I do at Google and you do at Microsoft. Are you working on big problems that interest you, or just making the dancing paperclip more efficient? Sounds like it's more like the latter in your case. This has nothing to do with which company you work for - it comes down to the role you play. Both Google and Microsoft have huge problems that require deep research skills and training to tackle, and having a PhD can give you the opportunity to go work on those problems. (I can't speak for Microsoft, but at least at Google you don't need a PhD to do that kind of work, but it certainly doesn't hurt.)<br /><br />The advantage of a place like Google is that I can both set long term research directions AND write a lot of code (both of which I love doing). Sounds like you've never been in a situation where you are doing research that nobody cares about or ever uses - let me tell you that gets old after a while.<br /><br />The Google software engineering interview does tend to focus on writing code on the whiteboard, and even more senior people have to run that gauntlet.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-65280469695653176092011-01-26T06:19:37.311-08:002011-01-26T06:19:37.311-08:00I am a graduate and currently working at Microsoft...I am a graduate and currently working at Microsoft as a software developer. And the work is pretty much coding oriented. <br />I used to enjoy this kind of work for the first few months but then I found this very boring (to say the least!! :P)<br />Thats why I was thinking of doing a PhD and getting into R&D, may be at Google.<br />But what you said in your blog, scared me!!<br />I don't see much difference between your work and mine; may be the only difference is your higher pay scale.<br />Seriously Matt, don't you want to move on to somewhere else where there is proper "research" and you have to spend less time in coding and much more attention in setting future directions???<br /><br />Having read your blog, I also think in the interview at Google, you must have been asked questions from the undergraduate level related to algorithms, data structures, OS. Isn't it?Abhijit Bosenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-5338057792344514592011-01-25T12:47:09.262-08:002011-01-25T12:47:09.262-08:00Re: Apple. I'll second this. Practically eve...Re: Apple. I'll second this. Practically everyone I know has some kind of Apple product, and the vast majority of computing people I know use Apple products for their day-to-day work. The company itself has a very high "cool" factor, and is now the most valuable tech company on the market. And yet while in grad school I never heard a fellow student express interest in working at Apple. Not even once.<br /><br />Wait, maybe their lack of draw as a research center has something to do with them being so profitable... hmmm...George Porterhttp://www.cs.ucsd.edu/~gmporternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-61063855541383336292011-01-24T17:07:01.263-08:002011-01-24T17:07:01.263-08:00Anon re: Apple: I don't know if the Apple comp...Anon re: Apple: I don't know if the Apple comparison is quite right. At least in the systems field, I don't know *anyone* from Apple who is publishing papers and going to academic conferences. I'm sure the folks at Apple are just as smart (or smarter) than at Google, but they seem to have less connection with the academic research community.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-91748260553466800292011-01-24T17:05:27.118-08:002011-01-24T17:05:27.118-08:00Anon re: honesty: To me, this means that at the en...Anon re: honesty: To me, this means that at the end of the day, your system has to work, it has to be robust and scalable, and it has to be documented and tested so others can use it. This is very different than a throwaway research prototype that doesn't need to have any of those qualities, but instead just has to work well enough to generate graphs that go up and to the right for a paper submission. It also means that we're not designing systems only for the sake of exploring an idea or demonstrating technical elegance; it's about building things that work and are useful. It is remarkable how much this grounds and focuses the work we do at Google.Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-76621201071136767032011-01-24T17:02:00.948-08:002011-01-24T17:02:00.948-08:00Wei - the "ladder" only pertains to comp...Wei - the "ladder" only pertains to compensation levels, not the kind of work you do, nor the distinction between research or non-research positions. In general the ladder level has nothing to do with your job title, which is just "software engineer" (on the engineering track). Because I have only been at Google for about 7 months, I do not have a level yet - the idea is that you are evaluated for your level after you have been in the job for some time. My understanding is that this is primarily the case for some of the higher levels, but I really don't know. I don't want to speak for Google's HR department!Matt Welshhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07077674014671176946noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-76929893797202480982011-01-24T11:01:32.939-08:002011-01-24T11:01:32.939-08:00Matt, David, you both mention that working with pr...Matt, David, you both mention that working with production-capable systems keeps your work "honest". What does "honesty" mean to you in this context?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-86012078368963157402011-01-24T03:34:41.788-08:002011-01-24T03:34:41.788-08:00well it's not only scientists that do reasearc...well it's not only scientists that do reasearch quite a few "engineers" and technicians do reasearch or we certainly did at the place I worked at first (BHRA)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-9186457242428335144.post-19518079508721717352011-01-23T20:49:16.061-08:002011-01-23T20:49:16.061-08:00Hi Matt, what do you think of the ladder (http://w...Hi Matt, what do you think of the ladder (http://www.quora.com/What-are-the-different-levels-of-software-engineers-at-Google) at Google? My friends at Google told me a fresh PhD would usually be placed at Senior Engineer, but one of them who only had a Master's degree was promoted from Software Engineer III to Staff Engineer within 3 years. Do you mind sharing your title?Wei Huhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/13683552196436356037noreply@blogger.com